1950s - the lost decade in models

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Re: 1950s - the lost decade in models

Post by BMW »

ronnie1972 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:55 pm I’m with you, I love the great cars of the fifties. But in the eyes of a model manufacturer a Ferrari 641 is going to outsell a 246 every time.
Yes, the Ferrari 641 might be recognizable, but honestly, I think that a Bugatti 35 in any color would be much more recognizable to the average pundit than an average Ferrari like the F10 or indeed a Lotus 91 etc.

I don't think the wire wheels themselves pose much problem either. If Casadio could make half-decent wire wheels in the 1960s then I am sure the current high quality manufacturers could do them even better using CAD design and high pressure injection molding.

But still, something must stop them.
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Re: 1950s - the lost decade in models

Post by Orso »

Probably that they don't expect to make enough profit on them.
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Re: 1950s - the lost decade in models

Post by Steffen_T »

I think you also have to keep in mind, that most of the modelkits come from Japan.

Japan and F1 had no relation for the 1950's. They had no Team, no car, no driver and no race. And I highly doubt the Japanese media's were bringing a lot of informations about a world championchip that primarly took place in Europe.
It changed in the 1960's when Honda entered F1 and F2:
At that time Lotus was the best Team. Jim Clark, Graham Hill and Jackie Stewart took part in a USAC non-championchip-race at Fuji in 1966 and probably became the first international known F1 drivers to race in Japan. And Tamiya released their first 1/12 F1 kits.
Even after Honda left F1, the japanese interest in F1 remained. Japan's next contact to F1 were the two Grand Prix's in 1976 and 1977. And - what a surprise! - Tamiya's first 1/20 F1 kits were released in 1977.
So, from the japanese point of view, there is sadly no reason to look into 1950's F1.
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Re: 1950s - the lost decade in models

Post by sky1911 »

Well, I think that each and every one of us is most likely influenced most by the decade of racing that he grew up with. Being a 70s kid, that would obviously be the 70s, 80s and 90s for me. So anything before that feels "old" and may be like "yea, dad, tell me more about the war and all that". However, my personal interest has always been the older things, in almost every aspect of modelling and general interest with the most modern car in my stash being a 934/935, same with planes, exclusively WW1. The general public is most likely to go for what they experienced first hand - see above - so the young 'uns will probably go for cars of drivers who they've actually seen racing.

That aside, depending on scale and budget at hand. A lot of the kits named in the initial post are available (in 1/12): Ferrari 156 (MFH), Alfa 158 (MFH), Alfa 159 (MFH), Lancia / Ferrari D50 (MFH), Maserati 250F (MFH). And those are just the ones mentioned in the post. There are other cars like the 500, the 801 (in 1/20), the 256 F1, the AM DBR1, the Alfa P2, the Bugatti Type 35, 250 TR, 315S / 335S (all of these from MFH). Then there are small specialist manufacturers like Fernando Pinto who has a 375 Plus, the AU Type C, the 625 F1 and 375 F1 (all1/24) and I believe I saw a W125 as well somewhere...

So I think the models are there - well not all of them obviously, but still. And as for the why - wire wheels have been cited and I absolutely agree. Just think back to the MFH wire wheels and the amount of effort it takes for just one of those using a jig! And to have that properly represented in a model without losing too much detail or turning it into a giant blob of resin is a lot of work and may come out of casting with a low hit to miss ratio. And then again, there's the focus groups (per my first paragraph) and the resulting promise of sales or rather lack thereof. And since most people are trying to run a successful business, sales are what matters. So the 431st reiteration of a Senna car will almost certainly beat a Moss car any day.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the old bits and am considering myself lucky in that the '67 F1 (GPL? ;)) season is well represented, but I would appreciated more of the old cars and we're lucky that Hiro san and Fernando Pinto (to names just those two) have given us plenty of models (see above) that from a pure sales perspective were probably DOAs to begin with.
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Re: 1950s - the lost decade in models

Post by pbrowne »

Talking of 50's/60's, I'm building a 1/20 MFH 1961 Ferrari 156 Sharknose now.

Waiting on some low melt solder for my Hako 888D and built a front and back wheel. Very satisfying and not very difficult at 1/20, though at 1/12 you are looking at a jig and separate spokes as I have done on my 1/9 MFH Brough bike. The Sharknose wheels:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51617425226_e624a6213f_b_d.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51618083794_0b1d876063_b_d.jpg

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Last edited by pbrowne on Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1950s - the lost decade in models

Post by stubeck »

indycals wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:28 pm
stubeck wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:50 am
ronnie1972 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:41 pm I suspect it’s as simple as demand. What is a model manufacturer more likely to sell more of, a Lotus 79 or McLaren MP4/4 vs a Vanwall or Ferrari 246?
At the end of the day they are in the business of selling models & making money.
Agree. Even the Lotus 79, people were clamoring for it for years, somehow we got two kits at the same time and then the amount of WIP threads we see for it is very small. I'm sure more people built it, but I was expecting it to be a huge success
I think Tamiya had one in the works but never followed through for some reason (as a product developer I can tell you I have a LOT of those), and when they saw Hasegawa coming out with one the got off their behind and brought it out. Unfortunately the Hasegawa kit was the better of the two but based on my decal sales Tamiya probably outsold it by close to 10-1 and we never did see another 1/20 F1 kit from Hasegawa after that.
Really cool info and makes sense. I figured they likely start work on a lot of models and then stop for a number of reasons (licensing, difficulty reproducing details, loss of interest.) I built one last year and it did seem to be an older style kit, not something I would have been expecting in the 2000s from them.
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Re: 1950s - the lost decade in models

Post by PeteJ »

I agree that the choice of subjects by manufactures can be a bit unfathomable. Having said that, I would remind everyone of the illusion of central position. That is that "I am in the middle and most people think like me." This is simply not true. Just because you want one doesn't mean that it could be sold in sufficient numbers to offset costs and make a reasonable profit. That is the issue facing kit makers every day. It is also why MFH kits are so very expensive. Yes, they make a great kit, but they make few of them and thus have to make a significant profit on each one. Manufactures like Tamiya and Hasegawa have to sell a ton of kits to get into the profit to keep themselves solvent.

As I recall, years ago a set of injection molds cost around $500,000 to make. I am sure that by now that is approaching $1,000,000. That said, $40 a kit that means that the first 25,000 kits sold pay for the molds. Factor in all the other production and sales cost and you are looking at probably 75,000 kits to get into the profit for most of the large model companies.

I know a lot of this is speculation, but that is a lot of people who share your passion for a particular kit. Although you may not be alone, that is a big crowd.
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Re: 1950s - the lost decade in models

Post by CK »

It always boils down to business and a little bit of personal preference of the person in charge to decide what to make. In today's business world there are not a lot of room for mistakes or the company will go belly up.

In truth, there were quite some models for the cars in the fifties. Hawk and Merit produced some very famous grand prix cars of the 30's and 50's. Yes they were all in 1/24. I think 1/24 was the de facto scale for cars in those days. Tamiya really creates this pull between 1/24 and 1/20 for grand prix cars.
Merit_01.jpg
Merit_02.jpg
Merit_02.jpg (32.22 KiB) Viewed 130 times
As 1/24 grand prix cars demand dies, no one would revive the old 1/24 old car molds even if they exist. What is the chance of creating as new mold for cars in the 50's in 1/20? It becomes a very narrow market for senior people like me. Making models for current/not that old cars would make all the sense as the chance for success is better.

I think the cost of making injection molds are actually going down. This is what I experience with my day time job. With CAD/CAM and automation in cutting molds, the price has dropped and quality increased. This is one reason that some new famous cars, planes and tanks are still coming out in new molds.

The sad thing is our hobby is not having sufficient number of new comers to keep it healthy.
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Re: 1950s - the lost decade in models

Post by glr190959 »

Hi,
I'm also building a 1952 Formula 1, the Ferrari 500 F2 starting from a 1/12 scale kit from MG Model, an Italian kit manufacturer now out of the market.
As for the quantity of 50s models reproduced to scale, I think Model Factory Hiro is doing a great job with all the kits it churns out over and over!
I am attaching photos of the 500 F2 which is in the final stage of assembly.
Greetings,
Giovanni La Rosa
P.s. Here is the link on the 500 F2 for those wishing to see some more photos
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=28260
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Re: 1950s - the lost decade in models

Post by indycals »

stubeck wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:59 am
indycals wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:28 pm
stubeck wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:50 am

Agree. Even the Lotus 79, people were clamoring for it for years, somehow we got two kits at the same time and then the amount of WIP threads we see for it is very small. I'm sure more people built it, but I was expecting it to be a huge success
I think Tamiya had one in the works but never followed through for some reason (as a product developer I can tell you I have a LOT of those), and when they saw Hasegawa coming out with one the got off their behind and brought it out. Unfortunately the Hasegawa kit was the better of the two but based on my decal sales Tamiya probably outsold it by close to 10-1 and we never did see another 1/20 F1 kit from Hasegawa after that.
Really cool info and makes sense. I figured they likely start work on a lot of models and then stop for a number of reasons (licensing, difficulty reproducing details, loss of interest.) I built one last year and it did seem to be an older style kit, not something I would have been expecting in the 2000s from them.
I can also attest to when you do have something that's been in the works forever and just isn't going anywhere, and you get a whiff that someone else is coming out with it, it does tend to motivate you to get that product to market ;)
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